March 02, 2009
Men's rights. Sounds a bit strange to the ear, doesn't it? But to people like radio show host Glenn Sacks, the need for pro-male campaigns is all too real. After all, shirts like designer David & Goliath's "Boys Are Stupid. Throw Rocks at Them" are popular but are also, to some, unfair and downright wrong. And they're not easily explainable to young, impressionable boys.
But how much of a widespread problem is this? Are girls now getting too big a piece of the self-esteem pie? Rebecca Woolf from Girl's Gone Child wants to know, "Are boys getting a bad rap?"
What's your opinion? Do you think boys are discriminated against? With a history of men in the White House, do we really need to worry that boys won't believe that they can grow up to be president? Or do you think today's society sends the message that boys aren't as good as girls? Join the Momversation by commenting in our community:
- Do you think boys and girls should be parented differently?
- Have you been discriminated against in the workplace?
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37 Comments
awesome topic for a super snowy morning. this spawned great conversation between myself and my husband who is home from work today since we are snowed in!
i watched this episode and when it ended, i immediately went to paul and said, "i really want you to watch this momversation today and let me know what you think."
so he watched. the whole thing. and i was proud to have him a part of this. kinda like the week you guys had your husbands on... just a nice change of pace and something to make the partners of the momversationists involved.
anyway, here's what he had to say... (this is paraphrased, but i have him looking over my shoulder and correcting me here and there so i get it right)...
"i'm all for one supporting equal rights by NOT putting down other groups under the guise of 'supporting equal rights.' that was awesome."
"i haven't experienced this discrimination myself, but i see what they're saying. it was a bit dramatic... i'm not going to be the one to go into a gallery and tell the manager 'apologize to my son who you just offended' but i think that would be a good example to use when teaching your kids right from wrong."
"as far as the tshirt goes... that's just stupid. but people wear tshirts that say stupid shit and that's their right. again, good teaching point for your kids... 'that tshirt could really hurt someone's feelings, etc.'"
"i'm in the majority as a white male, and i don't like to be discriminated against either just because i happen to be in the majority."
*** and as far as i am concerned, as the mother of a 10 month old little boy, and as a feminist, i totally agree with my husband. i proudly consider myself a feminist and i'm not going to admonish that by now referring to myself as a humanist. i definitely respect rebecca's view on that and think she had a valid point though. my feminist literature background is just way too important to me. :) as far as raising a son is concerned though, i fully intend to make issues like this one or any issue involving discrimination a topic of conversation that is used as a teaching tool. i think it is important to teach our kids respect and kindness regardless of viewpoints. and when questions arise about things like mindy's magnet or a tshirt, i will take that opportunity to teach my son about different opinions and how careful we must be in the way we voice those opinions.
(of course i say all this stuff and could see me totally being the mom to see something like that and see my son questioning it, wondering "mom, do i suck?" and me going AWOL because someone hurt my kid's feelings.)
do i think boys get a bad rap overall??? i'm not sure. i'm not totally convinced.
does my husband think boys get a bad rap??? "yes, but it's not entirely undeserved."
great topic ladies!!!
Mon, 2009-03-02 05:41
Great topic! I have three young boys and one of my goals as a mother is to teach my boys that they need to respect everyone regardless of gender, age, race.
We live in a culture now, fueled by the feminist movement of pervious generations, that makes girls believe that they are better then boys and that it is okay to treat them appallingly. Why does it seem perfectly normal to discriminate against gender but at the same time if the shirt said "White/Black/Asian/Mexican people are stupid, throw rocks at them" there would be such a public outcry and I'm sure even legal action? It's all just discrimination.
Mon, 2009-03-02 06:25
Oh wow! FANTASTIC topic you guys! LOVE IT! Oh man, this hits me in so many different ways I'm at a loss where to start.
In my family, and I think I probably said this in response to another discussion, my mom was the nagger, the picker, basically said my dad couldn't find or do anything without her because he was so disorganized, forgetful, lost, insert whatever bumbling insult here. And he was. He was forgetful, disorganized, forgot my age, drove me to middle school one morning when I was a sophomore in high school. Everything he did seemed to prove her point to me.
Then I got married. And my husband lovingly pointed out to me that it hurt him when I said some of those same things about him. And he personally hates all those sitcoms on TV where the husband is this bumbling idiot and the wife holds everything together and corrects his screw-ups. I think I could rattle off 20 of these examples. That may have been the first time I sat there and thought, you know what? If you treat someone like a child. They will act that way. If you tell them over and over again they can't do something, they won't! I need to trust that my husband will follow through instead of cutting him down before he even gets a chance. If you tell your little boys that they will grow up to be men that inevitably hurt girls, guess what?
And you know what? One I finally trusted him, my hubby followed through, and thank God because I do not have the time or patience to hold everything together. I totally heard this on Oprah, but whatever, if you spend all your time nagging and picking at your husband it essentially kills any respect and attraction you have to him altogether. There's no way you want to be getting busy with someone you're yelling at to take out the trash.
So for me, really, my parents put up this example of marriage and relationships between men and women that I seemed to follow and any and all television (oh yah, I am TOTALLY blaming television) programs that I watched followed the same model. There are a few exceptions, The Cosby Show... hmm... that's all I can think of. Which is sad. I'm thinking of sitcoms during the 80s. Anyone think of any others?
Mon, 2009-03-02 07:10
I think the most important thing in raising a "feminist boy" is to reinforce that *nobody* should be constrained by gender expectations -- that girls don't have to wear pink and love dolls, that boys don't have to have short hair and love trucks, that everybody can dance and dress up and play with whatever toys spark their imaginations. This is an ongoing proactive challenge, however; you have to be willing not only to explain why "throw rocks at boys" is a dumb slogan, but also why excluding girls from your backyard wiffleball game (or calling their toys "sissy") is unfair. Yeah, it's trendy to put boys down in a flip way, but it's still in a context where all their basic characteristics (boldness, say) are rewarded, while girls are being taught to have self-effacing hobbies and views of themselves. We need to take on all of those things at once.
Rebecca argues that men don't "demand respect," but again, you're living in a culture where the identical CV, given the name Jane instead of John, will be rated significantly less hirable; it sounds like men aren't really *lacking* in respect! The whole fact that we can have pop culture characters who are goofuses (e.g., Everybody Loves Raymond) is because the power class (I can't think of a less charged way to frame it) is immune to fun-poking; they'll still be men and thus cool (not "pussies") at the end of the day. [Imagine the difference in humor/controversy between shirts that say "smack whitey" and any other racial variant -- all unnecessary and stupid, but some much safer because the power dichotomy is pretty immune to such affronts.]
Anyway, I enjoyed the conversation, as ever, but thought somebody should raise these points.
Mon, 2009-03-02 08:16
@acm i completely agree with the men don't "demand respect" point that you brought up. well said.
Mon, 2009-03-02 10:53
Well said. This is a far deeper issue than just saying boys are getting discriminated against. I find arguments about "Man hate" amusing at best annoying at worst. Men aren't hated in society, neither are boys. It's just a nice straw man to be able to avoid talking about feminism in a serious light. It's far sadder that they way marketing wants to empower girls is by putting down boys thus keeping the patriarchy going very nicely.
The goal should be to raise our children regardless of gender not as objects or to view themselves as such. They should be taught to respect others. Girls shouldn't be taught to be self-effacing and boys shouldn't be given a pass b/c "boys will be boys." The book "The Self-Esteem Trap" has a lot of good discussion on this.
Tue, 2009-03-03 09:53
Thank you for choosing this topic!! I have noticed the "dumbing down" of men, especially in television, for quite a while now. I am so sick of the stereotype of the dumb male who needs a woman to take care of him, who is motivated only by the basest instincts, who objectify women, etc. It may be funny in a beer commercial, but it's not so funny when it is found everywhere in the media. It sort of parallels the madonna/whore thing, but men have to choose between being Forest Gump or the Marlborough Man (or both at the same time).
Mon, 2009-03-02 10:17
Boys can sometimes get a bad rap in circles where women are the super empowered I don't- need-a-man (sometimes bitter) feminist supremes. But for most of society, particulary minority groups, women are still fighting inequality. I suppose some people go to the extreme of man hating in response to so many years of female oppression. Hopefully at some point, the scales wil balance out.
P.S. The irony is the t-shirt was designed by a GUY, Todd Goldman!
Mon, 2009-03-02 11:46
I'm going to disagree with you there. I don't think having the Y chromosome gives you an innate ability to be harder to ruffle or tougher. I'm going to go further with this and say that I know many women who do have this ability. And I know guys whose self esteem is most definitely affected by remarks others around them make. They just may not talk about it because our society has decided that they're supposed to be 'tough'. I have had experiences where I thought guys could 'take' my sarcasm and it was not well-received at all.
And no, I don't think most men would consider this issue trite. My own husband and I have discussed it at length. "Most men are concerned with getting laid whenever possible?" Again, here's another stereotype that I think we can apply to both sexes.
Bottom line is: man or woman we all need to respect each other's feelings even if we think the other can 'take it'. Honestly, reiterating what I said above, if we change what we expect from people solely based on their gender, I think we would be surprised at what we get.
Mon, 2009-03-02 12:41
haha, I think we're all still trying to figure out exactly what IS the current feminist philosophy. But that is a topic for another day.
Um... as for me making sarcastic comments. I would say that I used to be sarcastic with everyone, male or female, so I wouldn't say I thought I was "one of the guys". I really expected everyone to have as tough a skin as I do. Until someone finally took me aside and basically said, "Look, I know you aren't being serious when you call me a 'crack whore' and it's said with love, BUT sarcasm is 90% joking and 10% truth and I'd like you to stop." And I fought it for a while, and then I was like, I am obviously hurting people's feelings, whether I would take it personally or not if someone said that to me, I need to change what I'm doing. Then I paid more attention to people's reactions to what I was saying and found that a lot of men and women didn't take it with a grain of salt.
To be honest, I have no idea if those guys were put off because I wasn't being a typical female. I do know that a couple of them definitely did not make me feel welcome after the verbal diarrhea. For example, one night I was at a convenience store with a friend picking up snacks and she wanted me to try some juice drink she liked. We went to the check-out line and a gorgeous older guy was checking out ahead of us with the same drink. She said to me, "See? He's getting one." And I said, "YAH and look at HIM!" Obviously, I meant, holy crap he's gorgeous. He turned around, totally pissed off and said to me, "That was RUDE." And stormed off leaving me shocked that he could even take my comment the wrong way.
Mon, 2009-03-02 14:22
This is true! But they're supposed to be MANLY and thick-skinned right?
Honestly, I think I would've reacted the same way if two guys were behind me and said the same thing.
It is a double-standard. I was on a blog about women in relationships with men in the restaurant industry. It's kind of like a support group. A guy made a comment about how he was married to a woman who was a chef asking advice on how to deal with her schedule. The majority of women responded with empathy, but there were more than a few snarky ones who tore him a new one telling him to 'man up' and support his wife because this was her dream and so on. These women had reached out to other wives whose husbands were chefs, but somehow he's supposed to just suck it up because he's a guy.
We have got to stop enforcing these gender roles!
Mon, 2009-03-02 16:37
This was, by far, the most ridiculous commentary I have ever heard! Rebecca, you sound very childish when you promise to march into a gallery and make them apologize to your son the next time they display offensive artwork. Get a grip, people! Are we really that ignorant that we let cartoons and t-shirts have that much influence over us and our behavior? Ridiculous. And Dana, if your little boy doesn't get that the "boys suck" t-shirt is silly, trivial, and untrue, then there's something wrong. My son is only seven and he knows that those t-shirts with mean sayings are just jokes done in poor taste. He feels secure enough to realize that it doesn't apply to him.
Mon, 2009-03-02 13:03
This is a really cool topic, and something I don't think is discussed enough.
My last semester at college last year, I got a wild hare up my butt and took three women's studies classes. one of them was on deconstructing the sexist marketing and advertisements our society is inundated with, which include your obvious and blatant sexism on the shirt and the painting.
That being said, I really do feel that there are more hurtful, subversive marketing, advertisements and products being put out there for consumers.
Try flipping through your favorite magazine. Rip out or mark any ads in which a woman is shown only in partial (lips, eyes, butt, sillhouette, etc.), is shown being dominated by a man by him being on her or appearing domineering towards her, or in a situation that, while highly glamourized, is basically showing women as sex objects, 50's housewives, or another say cliche.*** There ARE ads that do put men in the submissive position, but let's face it, there are a lot less.***
It seems the negative marketing towards men is more blatant BECAUSE no one could make a shirt that says "girls suck" or "let's kick girls in the face", so they fill that void with more passive messages. Now I cannot read a mag without dogearing those ads and making a mental note to try not to support those companies. I do not condone either side of the coin - can't we all just get along and love one another right now, anyway?
Have you ladies ever seen the shirts that say "Wingman: Because someone's gotta take the fatty home", or the other hundreds of tender gems I've browsed in stores or online? Sexism towards both genders is still pretty rampant, whether it is subconscious or otherwise.
Rebeccah, I love your idea of HUMANISM vs feminism or masculinism. I think we are still in kind of a weird social limbo right now, as women haven't been this equal to men socially or legally for very long (and by very long, I mean since around post-WW2 Rosie-the-riveter era, in America at the very least), and I think we've still got a ways to go. It's up to us to teach our kids that the battle of the sexes needs to be called off and we need to respect each other, no matter what sex we are.
Mon, 2009-03-02 14:39
I took a similiar course. Posh Spice's Armani campaign totally reminded me of it too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/14/victoria-beckhams-armani_n_1577...
She looks like someone hit her and she's lying dead on the floor. I mean, seriously. She ain't sun-bathin people! Her head is off on an odd angle, her body twisted with her legs bent awkwardly underneath her. it's not really a sexual pose either, unless you can call it that just because she's in her underwear. It looks like a crime scene photo.
Sorry I'm totally off topic.
Mon, 2009-03-02 14:45
Ha, of course they can make a Girls Suck t-shirt... and in a sexually degrading manner as well!
http://www.zazzle.com/girls_suck_tshirt-235086844875981689
Possibly NSFW.
Mon, 2009-03-02 17:14
While I agree that boys are getting a bit of blacklash in the quest to empower girls I find Rebecca's comment disturbing- in regards to women can be anything, including President. Did I miss something? When did that happen? WHEN has that EVER happened in the United States? Gender inequality happens on both ends, right now it is just a little more subtle when it comes to girls, than it used to be, but the glass ceiling occurs for women everyday in America. This isnt just a little boy hate issue. Anybody seen the type of clothing available for little girls lately? "DADDY'S PRINCESS", "SPOILED ROTTEN", princess cupcake, etc.....meanwhile, boys get the cars, trucks, dinosaurs, dogs, adventure clothing...........
I think it is difficult to raise both genders in our culture. One constantly has to fight the stereotypes.
Mon, 2009-03-02 15:04
Yah. In high school I went to a local department store with my mother and had to explain to her what "Hoochie-mama" meant because it was across the back of a shirt. There was also a "69" shirt. This was in the Misses section. But it's ironic and just a joke right? Sigh... I'd like to blame the manufacturers, but let's face it, these girls are dressing themselves.
Mon, 2009-03-02 16:29
RIGHT ON ladies. I have had a problem with this for a long time, long before I even had a son. I even wrote a college paper about how this is illustrated in television ads. You know, the women are always naggy bitches and the men are always bumbling idiots. It irks me to no end to see this kind of stuff in society. I have 5 brothers, and they are all awesome, they are not stupid, they do not suck.
The womens movement is all fine and dandy and is of course a good cause. But whenever there are fanatics for any movement, it gets ugly. This is why I hate PETA. I adore animals, I have for my whole life had no less than 3 pets at one time. But PETA takes things too far. Same goes for feminism. It stopped being about becoming equal to men and having equal respect, and became about putting men down and trying to assert our superiority over them. I just can't get behind that. And no wonder feminism is getting such a bad name!!!!!
Like I said, I have always been irritated about this double standard, but it hadn't occurred to me before that one day I'll have to talk to my son about this. What a big, fat bummer. I hope it's somewhat resolved by then, but I doubt it will be :(
Mon, 2009-03-02 17:13
In defense of feminism, there are many groups of people who define themselves as feminists. Only the extreme identify as female supremacists.
I am a feminist and proud of it.
Mon, 2009-03-02 17:16
I think you all should reread ACM's post. It's all about context. "Boys Suck" t-shirts are insulting and contribute nothing but negativity, but it's supposedly flip and funny precisely because they are members of a more powerful gender class. Enforcing gender stereotypes is wrong on both sides, but I'm raising three boys and discrimination against them based on gender is the least of my worries. We live in a sexist world. I think we have more to worry about than mall t-shirts that pretend to subvert the sexist paradigm.
Mon, 2009-03-02 18:08
I don't think this is really an issue.
COCOCOZY
Tue, 2009-03-03 06:44
I have to applaud you, Rebecca (all of you, really, but Rebecca first). You said in one word what I have been saying for years - much to the chagrin of my very feminist sister, cousins, aunts, etc. It isn't about feminism. I refuse to be a feminist.
I am a humanist.
I am a humanist because I believe ALL humans - young, old, man, woman, different nationalities, different religions - deserve to be treated with equal respect across the board.
Of course, this also means that if you screw up you should be treated equally as well. So - who cares of that postcard of a boy having rocks thrown at him was in response to a rap song about beating a woman or, even more directly, the stoning that is used as punishment against women in some cases in extreme societies, that doesn't make it right.
I think that there are so many barriers today that are up between people we have forgotten how to interact. Who needs to know that a t-shirt is going to be offensive to a boy if the only contact you have with a boy is via mySpace or Facebook? With the face-to-face taken away we may have opened up to a whole new world of what seems right and wrong. Now we just have to figure out if we are ok with it, and if not - teach our children that it is not ok.
Tue, 2009-03-03 06:50
I'll be a humanist when women are actually treated equally.
Tue, 2009-03-03 11:25
@pumpkin- i concur.
Tue, 2009-03-03 11:58
The whole feminist/humanist issue is probably a topic unto itself. I'm most definitely a feminist, but for me that means not only do I expect to be treated with respect, but also that I treat others (ALL others!!) with respect as well. It goes both ways, and I agree that sometimes both sides of the coin are not exercised.
I like Mindy's statement about parenting your children well. Let's raise 'em - girls AND boys - to feel good about themselves, to realize that if they want to be treated well they must treat others well, and that yep - if they see something which makes them feel bad, they have a right to express their discomfort and ask for change.
Tue, 2009-03-03 18:53
This is a very important topic, and I'm glad you chose to talk about it. I agree with all the points made in the clip about treating all people with respect. I take issue, though, with the idea that feminist = man hater. The people that want to prop up the patriarchal underpinings of our society never won a bigger battle than when they somehow put that idea into people's heads.
Growing up in the `90s, I thought that, too. I believed the stereotype that feminists were radical. That feminism wasn't necessary anymore, because girls now have the same opportunities as men. That feminists thought that women were better than men.
Then I lived in the world some more, and grew to understand that feminism is still needed. I decided to play drums in band, and got told I would never be as good because I'm a girl. I sat in engineering classes dominated by men. I was told that I couldn't have an assignment at work while pregnant because "You decided to have kids right now".
Feminism is not a radical idea. It is not about us over them. It is about women having the opportunity to make decisions about how to live their lives without societal disapproval. Dare I say, through equality it is even about giving men those same choices.
But I will gladly follow Rebecca into that store to protest that T-shirt. For my nephew, my brother, my husband, and yes - even for my daughter.
Tue, 2009-03-03 20:46
Except even with the same education and training, women only earn about 2/3 as much as men. We don't have the same opportunities as men.
I don't agree with all facets of Radical Feminism (as defined by r. feminists such as Andrea Dworkin), but I do think we can learn from that genre of feminism. And we can learn from the second wavers (and not all second wavers were radical feminists, it is a specific type of feminism). Feminism itself is based on the idea that women are equal to men. There has been no era in which feminists have claimed to be superior.
I would protest those shirts, too, because they reinforce stereotypes about boys that are untrue and unkind (it is not just stereotypes about women and girls that need to be combated). I would protest them because I love my nephews. I would protest them because I love men. I would protest them because they further the divide between men and women when we need to come together.
Wed, 2009-03-04 21:29
Ok, Heather, that is a super obnoxious. I totally agree with you, except about making a gallery manager apologize to your kid, don't make someone with no taste apologize, that's lame.
I agree that there's an expectation for boys to be under achieving idiots and slackers, and that we need to work against that. Boys will boys is one of the most dangerous negligent thing a parent can say about their son. We need to expect our boys to be gentlemen not thugs.
Tue, 2009-03-03 22:20
The anti-boy tees are awful, but really, who hasn't seen anti-girl tees? And just the fact that there is "prostitot" clothing--boys aren't expected to dress like they are about to go to their night job as a stripper.
Here's a taste of a few anti-girl tees: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/03/kidnapping-and-bondage-in... Remember, anti-girl tees are so much funnier when they threaten kidnapping and reinforce the stereotype that girls talk too much (because it's not like girls are ever violently encouraged to be silent).
I don't want people to be anti-boy or anti-men. Feminism is the idea that women and men are equal. I believe we should treat women well and men well--and it follows that we should treat girls well and boys well.
Wed, 2009-03-04 21:19
ohhhh, goodness, Rebecca, thank you for bringing this up - i had never thought about how I would hate for my son to see those types of messages bringing down boys! Hes two but now that gives me something to prepare for because I totally DO see men disrespected all over the place now - it's not done in my house, but if a sign is displayed saying to throw rocks at boys - I would be totally offended.
My mother was kind of counseling me and Eric before I gave birth to our son and she brought up how 40 years ago, tv show couples treated the wife like a moron. (we remembered I Love Lucy). NOW, tv show couples treat the man like a dope (we thought of king of queens, and the simpsons). She stressed to us how important it is that neither of us disrespect the other or put each other down. Rolling your eyes when your spouse is trying to talk to you - or even badmouthing your spouse behind their back with your friends is damaging to your relationship.
I used to have friends who'd say, "I don't ALLOW my husband to have the credit or debit cards." Even though SHE was a stay at home mom and he was working. Or "My husband KNOWS BETTER than to leave his socks on the floor when he gets home from work." Like he's a child. Like it's not HIS floor - like they're not dropped RIGHT NEXT TO HER SOCKS! ohhhhh, I hate wives like that!!!!!!!
If Eric is bringing in most of our income, I will gladly pick up his socks.
Thu, 2009-03-05 17:01