February 23, 2009
By now, you've probably heard of the case of Nadya Suleman, dubbed "Octomom" in the press. She's become a freakish celebrity, featured on shows like Dateline, The Today Show, and Extra. Pictures of her distended belly, heavy with 8 children, have popped up on TMZ. Her supposed obsession with Angelina Jolie even made headlines in the "legitimate" news. Heck, we at Momversation have talked about it here, here, and here. We've even twittered about it.
And with the news coverage, I'm sure you all have opinions about Nadya. According to reports, she's unemployed, unpartnered, lives with her mother, and has obviously spent money on plastic surgery. But are these reports just another case of the media demonizing a woman and her reproductive choices? Heather Armstrong from Dooce asks, "Should we judge the octuplets mom and others who have had IVF?"
What are your thoughts on Nadya Suleman? Does she deserve her public scorn? And how does this affect the way you view fertility treatments? Should technology allow 8 babies to be born at one time? Join the Momversation by commenting in our community:
- Did you conceive using fertility treatments? Share your story!
- Has the media gone too far with reporting on Nadya Suleman?
Links to sites we love:
Lipstick on a pig - Dooce
Girl of my dreams - Girl's Gone Child
Drinking while pregnant - Cool Mom
Spanx and the booty belly - The Mommy Blog
Poop in my lettuce - Bacon Is My Enemy
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103 Comments
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Thu, 2010-03-04 10:01
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Wed, 2010-03-03 17:29
I did not have any trouble conceiving my daughter but someone dear to me has been trying for ten years to have a family. She has done 4 IVF cycles and all came with negative results. Last summer I became her gestational surrogate and after years of trying, it was a positive result. However the pregnancy was eptopic. We are giving it another try this summer. So I definately do not frown upon fertility treatments. Every woman is intitled to be a mother. What I do frown upon is the poor judgement that Nadya's doctor has. Being a professional, he should have known the chance of having multiples with the amount of embryos he transfere.
Three embryos were transferred into me and only one made it through but unfortunately went the wrong way. This summer we are transferring the last 4!
Its exciting but full of anxiety. To help us deal we are sharing our story on www.IVFDiaries.com
Sat, 2009-06-20 05:03
I love you Karen. I want to be friends with you. Seriously. You are so lovely!
And Rebecca, let me tell you what, if a Dr could give you more arms that would work (or even just hang there without killing you), I promise you, you would get your extra arms.
I had not really thought about Nadya at all until I watched this Momversation. Now that I have seen it, I want to say I actually think Nadya is great.
So many people are deciding not to have kids because they are really selfish - she is making up for that.
I'll send my tax money to Nadya and her kids - they will take care of me when I'm old...
Fri, 2009-06-19 11:34
Absofuckinlutely we should judge her.
My husband works, I am unemployed due to moving country. We'd love a second kid, but, check it, WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.
OK, we probably could, but it wouldn't be a wise financial move at the moment, and even with being lucky enough to have healthcare, paying for the extra medical costs are unthinkable at the moment.
It's one thing to have your situation change (like a divorce, losing a job) leaving you financially high and dry with kids and a mortgage, it's quite another to be at rock bottom and freakishly give birth to a litter. Isn't this the mentality that got us to our current credit crisis? Wanting things we can't afford? Yes, yes, children are not things, save it.
It's all fun and games until you lose the hospital near you because the Octomom moves into your neighborhood.
Try this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29147091/
"The Suleman octuplets’ medical costs have not been disclosed, but in 2006, the average cost for a premature baby’s hospital stay in California was $164,273, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Eight times that equals $1.3 million.
For a single mother, the cost of raising 14 children through age 17 ranges from $1.3 million to $2.7 million, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture."
Or this one: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/story?id=6853385
I'd rather the assistance go to responsible families/single parents fallen on tough times.
Huh, who knew I disliked this topic so much?
Sun, 2009-05-10 13:52
My biggest problem with Octomom is the way it makes motherhood look. I really think that we perpetuate this idea that motherhood is something easy. Its not. This woman has all of these caregivers to help her. Where are these people coming from?
We see her out giving interviews and going to the hospital, etc. Who is taking care of all those kids while she's out? Where is the money coming from for this? These are important questions. Most of us maybe think a little about how we will need a babysitter to go to a movie before we get pregnant, but we don't think about those kids being our whole lives. Being at an appointment with a phalanx of kids climbing all over you. She inherently has to have caregivers simply because of the fact that you can't fit that many children into one car.
But, we never see that. We see her doing what she wants and those kids seem to have an endless supply of people watching them. For single moms without family close, this must be excruciating to see.
Sun, 2009-05-03 18:53
I really appreciate this conversation. I am not a mother, but I desperately would like to be one. However, because my kidneys have seen better days, It would not be healthy for me or a baby. This is a really tough topic for me because I'm seriously wondering, Why not adopt? What about all those children in the world who would love to be part of a family, even a family of six kids or even 12 kids. For a child that lives in an abusive home or no home at all, just having someone take care of them and love them is more than their little lives could ever imagine. I agree with the panel... that we should not judge... who are we anyway? But it's hard for someone like me, who cannot have children and really wants to, to see someone squander their God given right to be a mother having more children than they can provide for or give the individual attention a child needs.
Mon, 2009-04-27 09:49
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April 17, 2009
edit reply
Fri, 2009-04-17 16:26
Do you Need alittle Extra Cash? well all you got to do is Sign up with this link
http://www.prizerebel.com/index.php?r=597278 Go to avalible Offers And they will Send 50 Dollors to your House (When they Ask for your Adress to send it.) Dont believe Me Well ive Made 200 dollors From this. Im just trying to help.
Fri, 2009-04-17 16:25
I just have one question- what the heck is so wrong with adoption? Why is it such a taboo for many individuals who can not conceive right away or even some who can to adopt? There are so many babies in this world who need good parents. Why not become the parent to those beautiful babies? Just because they aren't blood, doesn't mean they're not yours. To be a wonderful and fulfilled parent is to have love in your heart, not shared blood.
Regarding Octomom- she has proven that she can not make responsible decisions. She has a lot more issues than most of us could probably ever understand. If she did not want to be responsible for "killing" healthy embryos then why would she do IVF in the first place? If the statistics are not very high in the embryos surviving when implanted, wouldn't she be taking the risk of "killing" the embryos every time she was implanted? However, if she felt that strongly about the subject, why didn't she try to have her embryos adopted out to others who are not fertile?
Many, many people will be responsible for supporting those children. She has put so many people, churches, groups in an unfair position because of her selfishness.
Fri, 2009-04-10 11:21
I think the problem with the Octomom is the fact that she is living with her parents, has six other kids, has no job, and is not married. How is she going to raise those kids by herself? What about health care for them? She may get some money from wellfare and her disability, but will it be enough to raise her kids?
Mon, 2009-04-13 15:59
I can't not judge. I went through oral fertility drugs. I had already made the informed decision to NOT go forward with injectables or in vitro. I am small in stature, but rather round. I was all too aware that my body would have issues carrying more than one child. When I found out I had two little ones inside, I was scared.
When I went into labor at 24 weeks I was terrified. I was told the odds of them surviving were 50/50. The odds of them surviving and not having lifelong complications from the delivery at that point, higher. Each week from that point increased the odds. When I delivered finally at 28 weeks, they were given stats of 100% survival with odds of health being pretty high.
With each fetus in a gestation, the odds of prematurity increase. Transferring more than a few embries when she obviously can be pregnant and give birth was an irresponsible medical decision on the dr's part. It ranks up there with child endangerment in my eyes, both medically and morally. Sorry, but as someone who battled for health and life of 2 children, I can't imagine anyone knowingly or willingly putting themselves or children at risk like that. That isn't to mention the financial burden. I know the cost for my kids was about 500 thousand total. I can't imagine the cost of 8. I had insurance, and thankfully it paid well. I really feel like this woman has actually set fertility rights further back both medically and socially.
Having said all that, I do not want anyone to think I lean toward gov't policing of my fertility. I think it should be up to the patient and their dr. However, as someone else said, (sorry I forgot who you are.) just because I love my arms, doesn't mean a responsible dr is going to give me more.
I cringe when I think of what those kids are going to face. I hope it all turns out differently than I suspect, but my cynicism prevents me from really believing that it will.
Wed, 2009-04-08 14:19
I am so scared that something will happen to me or my family because i think the media would make me or one of them the most LOVED or HATED person in the world.They take everything and run with it,good or bad,its so sad but its how it is nowadays.
I really don't know what Nadya's intentions were but i am sure she has regrets of some of her choices and feels like she is in hell.
I am not going to judge her because i dont know the true story, but i think she really might have a mental problem and people should just leave her alone.She is getting too much attention when there is more serious issues going on in the world, she got what she wanted and that was attention.People do crazy things and she happen to be one of those crazy person.I hope this attention she is getting will die down soon because it is madness.Lets just pray fro those children.
Thu, 2009-03-26 15:16
Crazy or not, the upside of this whole octomom circus is that NOW the world is watching. Even after the hoopla dies down- people, authorities, anyone nearby will be concerned or at very least curious about how the family is faring. I wouldn't be surprised if she were to be offered a reality show or some other form of monitoring that would keep her in the spotlight nearly 24 hours a day. As a matter of fact, it may not be a bad idea. Despite the quality of her decision making process, she obvioulsy has a tolerance (maybe even a desire) for extreme circumstances.
Thu, 2009-03-26 10:18
I think that the media should stop this obsession with Nadya Suleman. This is a sensitive issue for many but those babies are here now and we need to give this woman a chance to care for her children. I am glad that she made some money from interviews..etc. so she could buy a home for her children. Who are we to judge? I think we should now try to support this lady for the sake of all these children..continually ripping her apart is not going to solve this issue...I don't think that she is as crazy as people made her out to be...yes, she should never have had all those babies..but when she had all those embryos emplanted, she and the doctor apparently believed that only one may survive and not eight...what did you expect her to do when she learnt that there were actually eight?...Abort them?
Tue, 2009-03-17 13:24
I might have judged in her in a gentle way, contemplating the situation in which she put herself and her children but I can't bring myself to do that now. Now I want to defend her. Nadya has become a scapegoat. It's frightening to see the murderous, snarling hatred of the sociopolitical mob force. Much of it is misogynistic and particularly aimed at punishing single mothers. I have a problem with it, so now I'm just going to be Nadya's cheerleader and hope she gets all the funds she needs to raise those kids. I do, however, hope that she doesn't have any more!
Mon, 2009-03-09 18:08
I wish she lived in my state. I would love to go over and help her out. I feel bad for her and all the junk coming at her everyday. Come on people think about the KIDS. I've seen people have multiples and people are showering them with gifts to help them. She obviously loves her children, why aren't people helping her out? I'd rather be paying tax money to support a mother who loves her 14 kids than a those mom's you hear about who abuse their children and neglect them completely. Come on people, are you all about the gossip instead of the help she is needing. If you honestly think you are right by saying those kids need to be taken away from their MOTHER who honestly loves them. Than I'm siding with Nadya on this one.
PS. My Grandma had 11 kids, while they were growing up their dad was a drunk so my grandma had to raise them on her own. They are all grown w/ their own kids now, sure some may have problems b/c their dad was a drunk...but I think their problems may have been worse if they had been taken away from their family.
Fri, 2009-03-06 12:11
Several issues here:
1) Medical team: implanting that many embrios should be illegal. Period. You can risk having two implanted and getting twins when all you wanted was your last child, but anything more than that is too much. Doctor's blame: 80%
2) Mother's reasoning: she's not that crazy. If you're handled by such a team of doctor's and they "create" so many embrios for you, as a mother of four, I am pretty sure it would be a torture for me to know that there are a bunch of embrios that are actually my children, human beings held hostage by a bunch of guys in white overcoats just because they can...and I'm an atheist, so God does not play a role in the decision for me. Honestly, I wish my brother had not donated sperm by the truckload because I will never know how many nephews and nieces I have, and I will never get to meet them, and if I ever see someone who looks like him around, I'll have to wonder if it's one of them.
3) Our hypocritical society: I remember very well the outpour of support the couples who had septuplets got: free diapers, clothing, baby items, volunteer babysitters, you name it. We are denying this to her because she has six more children or because she's a single mom? Apparently, she has been a better mom than many couples are to their children. I think this part is shameful... the babies are here, they have nothing to do with it, LET'S HELP THEM, DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!
4) Tax payer money, etc...: first of all, the hospital and the doctors are going to get paid, so I'M SURE they were not concerned for your taxpayer money slipping out of your pocket. And then, hypocrisy again: so you don't want your taxpayer money go to raise these children, but it's okay if it goes into military expenditure, bankrolling insurance and pharmaceutical companies (most of the money stays in the upper layers... in executive's pockets, we all know that!!!!)
So, I'm sick of narrow-minded, low people who complain about their money going to this cheeky gal... B.S., hypocrites, there's so much more you should be angry about!!!
She's a scapegoat: the doctors made a killing, the media is loving the ratings, and she AND HER FAMILY are suffering the brunt of it all. Shameful, plain shameful.
I'm going to see how I can help those kids, ALL 14, get a decent life, if possible with the circus that has been built around them...
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:45
I don't think what this lady did was right. I can't even believe that the Doctor actually let her do this. Let me say to you ladies, I'm Puertorican ok. You know that Puertoricans reproduce like cockaroaches. And I only had two children and snip snip with my spouse. And he has a child from a previous marriage. So we have three. Knowing that there are less and less jobs out there and the divorce rate in the United States is freakishly high, she goes out and decides "Hmm, Maybe I should have baby number seven." Since supposedly she was not planning on having eight.
I do not disagree with the whole process of IVF. In fact, I feel terrible with women who can't have their own babies like I do. And they have to go through the entire process like this in order to have their own little one. But Jesus Christ, this woman is insane. Why did she not get psychatrically evaluated before having even six children? Why was there not even a financial evaluation? Taking care of children is financially draining, emotionally, and physically draining.
And SHE HAD PLASTIC SURGERY??!! WTH?!?!? I struggle just on buying diapers, and now I'm deciding to go back to school, work, and support my family. And mind you I'm married. Also dealing with my husband's health issues. So damn, why am I not getting help? I mean I'm doing more for my family as many women are doing. Why aren't we getting more help or donations?
I so agree with maybebaby WTF is up with the Duggars? Why the hell do they deserve a fricking mansion house purchasing with OUR taxes. WHY THE HELL CAN'T I HAVE THE SAME TREATMENT AND I WORK MY ASS OFF. And then we women, single parents, and the everyone else shouldn't be angry? We should be pissed the fuck off. If you can't afford to have your babies taken care of then they should be put up for adoption for people who can't have children.
I have three children and I will do all in my power even prostitute myself in order to have food on the table. That's right. If I had enough sense to open my legs and have sex and pop out two children. Then it is my RESPONSIBILITY to take care of them. Yes, RESPONSIBILITY is something that the Duggars and that Octomom need to learn and add to their vocabulary.
I'm not gonna lie I'm on government assistance and also working and also going to school. So at least I'm trying. And my husband is now going through the same crisis as many are, lay off. My mother is one child of fourteen as well. And my grandmother and my grandfather did everything in their power to make sure that they can take care of those children. My grand mother sold food in the public and held a job and my grandfather was a Pastor. And they had a huge house in Puerto Rico.
Sun, 2009-03-01 18:21
Forgive me, I'm skipping all the comments and cutting straight to the chase.
This woman isnt Crazy? YEAH RIGHT! Lets look at The Duggars. Yes, I think theyre kind of insane for having 18 kids... but ya know what? At least they keep them in good clothes, with a roof over their heads, and full stomachs. And BLESS THEIR MOM who home schools all of 'em! Those kids will have a good head on their shoulders and a good chance in life.
Cut back to Ms Suleman who has 4 less than the Duggars, but is foreclosing on her house, feeds her family on welfare, instead spends $ on plastic surgery for her face, and is a single mother. Oh and I'm not dissing single moms here - 14 and single is way different than 4 and single... and different still to 17 and partnered; we're talking number of hands available to wrangle kids here - its sheer math.
The issue is not about high order multiples and large families... the issue is about ABILITY to cope with such a family without anyone suffering too much. John and Kate Gosselin had 6 in one go but can clearly take care of theirs! Yes they have a lot of help and a nice TV show to bring in some money, but they could have kept good clothes on the kids and food in their mouths without that if they'd needed to. Ms Suleman went into this already in a bad position. Thats what makes her insane. THAT'S why people are questioning her mental state.
Come on, HOM will never become a legal issue. An ETHICS issue maybe, but lets remember that ethics is about practicing reasonably. If someone has a better shot at hanging on to one or two healthy babies with a transfer of 8 embryos, fine. But if eight is likely to turn out as five... the line has probably been crossed. I don't honestly think people who need medical intervention for fertility or infertility will be sabotaged by this.
I do think that counseling prior to such procedures should / will become more commonplace, to ensure that the party (parties) are of sound mind. Clearly, a policy of counseling prior to transfer would have zeroed Ms Suleman out as mentally unfit for such a procedure.
Sun, 2009-03-01 00:26
You know, I'm a lot less outraged and judgemental over this than I am about another woman who chose fertility treatments.
That woman, if I chose to have her in my life, is a step-mother in law. Married to a convicted pedophile, my non-quite FIL. AND A DOCTOR TRIED TO HELP THIS FAMILY HAVE CHILDREN. AFTER THE DAD ALREADY MOLESTED HIS OWN KID from a first family and served time in jail for it. DUH???
Thank Darwin they failed...
I am ticked off about my tax dollars regardless, because somewhere my hard work and time away from my kids went to bomb some Iraqi child. Feeding one in the USA ticks me off a lot less.
Just like the Chukwu octoplets are old news, some day this lady will be too.
Sat, 2009-02-28 15:37
You are absolutely right...that's why I think we should be more outraged at the medical and legal part of it than at the person herself. Hopefully you have nothing to do with your in-laws! (I have a set of those, too, if that's any consolation, only he was "just" an alcoholic and an abuser... happily severed from my family once the first baby was born)
Tue, 2009-03-03 02:02
I don't believe the anger about Nadya Suleman is about IVF or a woman's rights to reproduce. The issue my community of friends and co-workers have been talking about includes the high cost financially and emotionally of raising children, and the entitlement that Nadya Suleman exudes.
I love children, and would have loved to have had more than two, but we couldn't afford them. I work full-time as an elementary school teacher and at the end of the day sometimes don't have what it takes to give to my children because I am giving so much of myself - emotionally and financially - to the children in my classroom. I regulary buy school supplies, clothes, and food for students in need in my class out of my own pocket. The school nurse is often the primary care provider for these children, and we have now started offering dental care at school. These things are great, but the students needs are greater than we can provide on many other fronts.
Wouldn't it be nice to have beautiful nails and other luxuries that Nadya Suleman seems to think are basic needs? Housekeepers, department store cosmetics, and designer clothing are not necessities. Just this week, a mother of a student who I went and bought new shoes for because he was wearing ones that were too small, came into my classroom with a Coach bag, nail tips, lip injections, and eyelashes that went past her eyebrows. Nadya Suleman is not alone.
Sat, 2009-02-28 07:49
I think there's one question that we all should think of: if the doctor had reduced the embryos to three, and only one had become an infant, would we still judge her so harshly? 7 children and on welfare... she would hardly be the only one...
Regarding her entitlement... I would call it getting defensive; can you imagine how you could handle this crazy media circus? I'm not defending everything she does, but I think these are issues we must look at.
What worries me the most is that her apparent concern for child rearing issues doesn't really go together with her obsession for external appearance...was she that ugly? She probably has self-esteem issues, so perhaps her motherhood is the one thing that makes her feel worthwhile... just a thought.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:58
Here is my concern and where, yes, I do judge. From everything that I've read Nadya IS NOT infertile. She has had 6 healthy pregnancies in 7 years, beginning when she was 25/26 years old. Just because she conceived all of the children through IVF does not make her infertile. Comparing her situation to a woman who struggle for years with infertility is neither fair, nor logical.
There are certainly many people to point the finger at in this situation and it's quite easy to do. The doctor? Sure, it looks like he was irresponsible by implanting all 6 embryos, however with our litigious society what could have happened if he denied her the "right" to all of her embryos? It's a complete Catch 22, because creating laws/guidelines/rules either way is going to limit someone's rights, whether we want it to or not.
Also, I am not familiar with California's welfare system, but the biggest problem I have with this case is the fact that she was able to pay for IVF not once, not twice, but SIX times (and alledged plastic surgeries), while she can't afford to pay full price for food to feed the children she does have, can't afford any type of mortgage or rent, and has no immediate plans for income other than donations from sympathatic strangers. If the rumors are true and she saved up welfare checks to pay for unnecessary medical treatments, then that is a HUGE problem. The money should have been used for her children, plain and simple. My qualms about the American welfare system aside, this is a clear cut abuse and it should be investigated.
I commend her for wanting to continue her education and get a degree so she can support her enormous brood, though yet again, I'm going to judge. Counseling of any kind can be a noble profession, but it does not automatically mean an income that can financially stabilize a family of that size. More often than not, counselors have to put in long hours and many years before they can even dream of supporting a typical sized family with a single income. Addtionally, now with the noteriety that this pregnancy has brought, I can't imagine any patient feeling comfortable being counselled by her.
If there is any kind of intervention by the government, I hope it is in an effort to obtain financial security for the childrens' futures, as in some kind of educational trust, so all 14 are not doomed to a life of poverty because of their mother's poor choices. Nadya's financial planning abilities are obviously suspect, so I don't think she should be handed a check, because there is evidence that her children will never see a dime.
Fri, 2009-02-27 19:55
One correction from during the Momversation (sorry if this is a duplicate comment) . . . the doctor who implanted the 6 embryos (two allegedly divided into twins) IS BEING INVESTIGATED by the local MEDICAL BOARD. His ethics are being questioned as this goes against guidelines of fertility treatment specialists.
I live in the same area as Octomom. She graduated from a local high school and went to a local college. I have been obsessed with learning about her state of mind, her intentions, and her work history. She received $168,000 since her work injury during a riot at the institution where she worked.
She was disabled enough to receive payments, but not too disabled to have 6 children, and then carry 8 more. Her medical treatment after IVF is being covered by the State of California (MediCal). The family receives Food Stamps, but Octomom does not consider this Welfare. She also receives Social Security Disabled benefits for one autistic child, and for 2 ADHD children. Now how hyperactive does your son have to be to receive Federal money? I believe this is how they pay the Nanny that has popped up in the scenario. Her mother also declared bankruptcy and claims there was a bad real estate investment (yeah, like all of us homeowners in L.A. County!).
It has been announced in the past few days that the Octuplets will not be allowed to go home to the current living conditions -- per Child and Family Services. They do not believe the children will be cared for properly in the existing home situation.
Being a single working mom, paying taxes here in California and barely squeaking by on a good salary in a small condo, I am fascinated by Octomom (and others who seem to abuse the System).
Maybe we should pray for her and especially for the 8 TINY infants waiting in Bellflower to meet their destiny.
Thu, 2009-02-26 15:17
Well said.
Even when I desperately could have used state aid, I never qualify. It would make my life significantly easier to not have to stress as much about even 300 a month. I can't begin to figure out how some people manage to abuse the system.
My thoughts and prayers are with those infants. I hope ALL of the children involved are well taken care of.
Wed, 2009-04-08 14:40
I am adopted, I gave a baby up for adoption, and I have an adopted daughter. This woman should have all 14 of her kids removed from her care and adopted out as a whole to a family that can care for them properly. She is a headcase and will only spawn more if allowed to do so. She should also be made to take injectable birth control as part of a probation for at least 18 years.
Thu, 2009-02-26 13:13
Obviously, the adoption issue has effected you somehow...aren't you being a little harsh, nazi-like...sterilization, perhaps?
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:50
I just had the greatest idea. I think the IVF doctor, in this case, should be forced to pay child support for every single baby he helped nadya to have. It should be a warning to all IVF doctors who are thinking about acting so irresponsible. He needs to be held accountable too.
Thu, 2009-02-26 08:24