Vaccines and Autism: Debate Over?

First off, I want to recognize that we are all doing what we feel is best for our children. How awesome is it that we live somewhere where we are allowed to make these decisions for our families? I know these debates can get pretty heated so I just wanted to give a shout out to all of us for just trying to do the right thing.

I spoke with my daughter's pediatrician early on and basically said - "give me a reason to vaccinate" She, although she was very pro-vaccine, couldn't do it. Most of the diseases we are vaccinating for are so rare now that you're much more likely to get hit by that SUV Mindy was talking about. There were two reasons my doctor told me she couldn't give me a good reason to vaccinate. a) these diseases are so rare that it is INCREDIBLY unlikely for your child to get them and b) even though it is so rare she had actually had a child die who HAD been vaccinated. Why are we ok with putting aluminum and formaldehyde and a host of other things (these are KNOWN carcinogens) in our children's bodies on the off chance they "could" get sick. They "could" get sick anyway. We can't control everything.

I completely agree that we need good, quality studies done that are not funded by the pharmaceutical companies or anyone who benefits from vaccines. (doctors!) One important point about vaccines though, is that, even if we get a "good" study, it may not really tell us what we need to know. Case studies measure the antibodies created in the bloodstream, NOT immunity to the disease. There is a difference. When we are vaccinated, the culture goes directly into our bloodstream and bypasses the other defense mechanisms our body has (skin and lymph system) and completely cuts out their protections. Our culture is so enamored with scientific data that we completely disregard any sort of anecdotal evidence. This is so frustrating to me - these people are not all crazy! There is something going on and these mothers feel it but, in this instance, and this instance only our culture tells us to ignore our gut. We are told in every other aspect of life to just trust our instincts, our heart, our true self, but, when it comes to something like this, we are just told to shut up and trust the doctors, the experts. Unfortunately, the way our medical system is set up, they aren't the experts, the drug companies are. Our doctors get information on drug safety from the drug companies so....it all makes sense I guess.

Thu, 2010-02-11 08:50

I just joined as a result of following Heather's blog. Interesting site and rather eye-opening. I see lots of opinions which is great, everyone is entitled to have them. What I do find interesting is what is missing from the comments. Lots of opinions used as if they are facts but not hard references. I wonder how many people offering their opinions have actually done the research on both sides before arriving at their conclusion (other than Ladyofnomads)?

I'm in support of safe vaccines and maintaining my right to make an informed decision. I'd like to see a good vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study - wouldn't the rest of you? It has never been done - wonder why? I'd like to know why our Congress exempted vaccine makers from any legal liability? I'd like to see studies done on the synergy of giving more than one vaccine at a time - what does it do to a body to give it live virus MMR (measles, mumps & rubella) at the same time - rarely does an inidividual get all three diseases at the same time yet we think nothing of doing it on purpose to small children. We're more cautious about adding new foods into their diets as babies than we are about what we inject them with. I'd like to know why the medical community is just now finding out using Tylenol depletes the body of glutathione which is necessary for the body to detox toxins. Google Tylenol & vaccines, you'll see a study came out last fall showing that using Tylenol has reduced the effectiveness of vaccines. I'd like to know why in the '80's autism was 1 in 10,000 and now it is 1 in 100? Frankly, I'd like to know why our government tells us time and time again they don't why BUT it isn't the vaccines - sounds rather contradictory.

Also, regarding the Wakefield situation it isn't clear from the comments but this was a case study on ONE live virus vaccine. Only one out of the entire schedule. His case study found measles virus in the guts of autisic kids and it shouldn't have been there. He suggested further research. I fail to understand how the Lancet's retraction can be taken as the gospel truth that no vaccines contribute/cause autism. The case study never said that in the first place!

For those that would choose autism over death that is your choice. I'm just wondering, though, if you'd trade places with my friend? At 14 her son is still in diapers, noverbal and severly self-mutalating. For her, and thousands of others, they've seen a correlation to vaccines. How do we know they are wrong - our government won't fund the studies to prove either way. The original study that was done, and paid for by the taxpayers, is now being held overseas in a pharma co. vault where US laws have not effect. Wonder why?

My biggest fear is that we are so caught up in judging each other's decisions that we are loosing sight of the big problem.... this is the sickest generation of kids ever in the US. The first generation of kids who are not expected to have a life expectancy longer than their parents. The US also has the most agressive vaccine schedule in the world. We also prescribe more ADD meds than anyone else. I don't think we should be focused only on autism. I fear autisim is the tip of the iceberg - don't forget the huge increases in ADD, allergies, eczema, learning disabilities, sensory issues, etc. Go to fourteenstudies.com to see the reviews of the old studies that supposedly prove no link and go from there. We have to move past judging and blaming each other and become a united front. As parents we should be demanding solid science, done by someone other that the pharma co.

Wed, 2010-02-10 12:22

I'm not anti-vaccine so much as pro vaccine choice. I have waded deep into the actual research, reading published papers, vaccine inserts, CDC data, morbidity/mortality charts that span decades and talking to doctors and researchers as well as other concerned parents, and the deeper I went, the murkier those waters became. I don't think it's clear at all whether the benefits outweigh the risk or vice versa. Personally I have chosen to NOT vaccinate - for now. This has nothing to do with the autism debate for me.

There are a lot of risks to vaccinating that I think are downplayed that should not be, not just for my child, but to public health at large, and not just regarding the rise in autism or auto-immune diseases that may or may not have anything to do with the massive increase in vaccines and their doses, but with overall, long-term disease control strategies. It bothers me that we see fewer outbreaks of measles, but it kills a higher percentage of people now when an outbreak does strike. It bothers me that getting a vaccine for one strain of a disease can make you more susceptible to other types (referring to serotype replacement). It bothers me that there is so little research being done on waning immunity. It bothers me that vaccines get rushed out the door because the manufacturer persuades the CDC - far too easily, IMO - that there is great suffering and thus great need, only to pull the vaccine a year or two later because it turned out there were serious health risks they missed(like the first version of the Rotavirus vax causing intussususception [sp?]), or it just plain didn't work(wish I could remember which one I'm thinking of here). Shouldn't that have been figured out in clinical trials? The makers issue blanket statements on efficacy and then change the number of doses required because that percentage turned out to be total bs. Some vaccines have multiple studies citing wildly different efficacy rates. MMR is supposed to be one of the most effective, but some studies propose that it may be only around 70% effective on average. Bah! How is anybody supposed to decide with such crappy, contradictory data? So I'm a little skeptical of the purported benefits, especially for someone living in a modern society with full access to decent nutrition, sanitation, and overall healthcare. Those things have a huge impact on disease rates, and they have largely evolved at the same time as vaccines. For me the world has moved too fast, done too much to say X causes Y and Y causes Z. The causes of disease reduction are most likely numerous, and placing too much emphasis on vaccines' role, I think, gives a false sense of security. Equally so with something like autism.

Second, the propaganda machine totally ticks me off. Popular perception of the herd immunity theory is what gets me most. There is supposed to be a specific threshold amount - a percentage of people that have to have immunity - in order for outbreaks to stop. With regards to vaccines, this means a certain percentage have to be vaccinated. It's different for each vaccine based on approximations of their effectiveness. For most vaccines, you're talking about somewhere between 80 and 90% of the population. It is important to realize - for those of you attacking non-vaccinators like me - that we are way over that threshold for childhood vaccinations. Parents like me who are taking a closer look and a more cautious approach to vaccines are a tiny minority, less than 1%, I believe. And, hello, we're still having outbreaks. Even if herd immunity theories and efficacy ratings are totally, 100% accurate, you still have a huge amount of un-vaccinated or under-vaccinated adults running around totally screwing up this herd immunity thing. And since we don't actually have any idea how long vaccine-induced immunity lasts, we always will have this problem. And the drug-makers are not in the business of fixing the gaps and oversights which might be causing problems down the line. They are in the business of making new drugs. New vaccines to add to the schedule every year. Meanwhile I can't figure out why my pediatrician is screaming at me for saying it's unnecessary to give Hep B vax (a sexually transmitted disease by the way, and again a vax without data on how long immunity lasts) to my newborn. And teenagers are getting pertussis and chicken pox and shingles. And articles tell horror stories and lambaste parents who aren't getting the DTaP or HIB for their kids because they are "putting the immune compromised at risk" when neither of those vaccines do much if anything to stop carriage or transmission. Constant misinformation and hostility and scare tactics keep anybody from getting the real, whole story, which works out great for the vaccine manufacturer because they don't want people to know the truth. Conspiracy theorists think the big secret is that they are trying to make us sick, trying to control us somehow. Really, the secret is that they don't have any answers to the questions, not any more than I do.

So when it comes out that Wakefield modified or falsified the results of his studies, I can't say that I'm surprised; it seems like everybody's doing it. But I still feel like there's an elephant in the room.

Mon, 2010-02-08 10:14

I vaccinate fully, on the recommended schedule. Neither of my children have had serious reactions. All the same, I do feel sort of relieved to hear that this study was expunged. I think there is always that niggling doubt at the back of your mind that says, "What if?"

With my 2nd child, my son, following his first round of vaccinations he got a rather large red mark on his leg a few hours later. At the time I tried to do some investigation to just re-assure myself that this was normal. Because, like I said, I believe in vaccination but I still worry about my kids because that is what parents do. It really turned me off that I couldn't find anything like a list of 'normal vaccine reactions' online. All I could find were anti-vaccine horror stories, and pro-vaccine statements about how SAFE and EFFECTIVE vaccines are. Because this issue has become so polarized, we can no longer have a frank discussion and say, "Look, your kid might have some swelling and a fever, and this is what's OK and this is what's not OK."

Fri, 2010-02-05 22:19

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Fri, 2010-02-05 18:36

I remember hearing people call bullshit on this since way back before I even thought about having a child. So, when I got pregnant, I did a LOT of reading on the subject. I was *pretty* sure it wasn't true, but like Daphne said, I was still scared.

In the end, I read one reliable account of a condition being linked to a vaccine, and about a zillion that said there was no relationship, aside from the causal relationship of children who are already destined to be autistic having the process sped up by the mercury in some vaccines. (But even that is hotly debated.)

When it came time for the shots, my pediatrician sat me down and told me everything. The risks, the benefits, how the benefits GREATLY outweigh the risks, and in the end I made the decision to vaccinate. I wasn't surprised that he was fine.

I know that a mother with a sick child needs a scapegoat, I'm so certain that I would too. But, it's time to face the facts: the MMR is not your scapegoat. There's so much more that we need to learn about autism, and I wish we hadn't wasted all that time focusing on vaccinations.

Fri, 2010-02-05 17:21

Naturally there are still children who will suffer reactions to vaccines and who may even die from a vaccine. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't vaccinate. It's kind of like using a car seat: it provides superior protection for your child, and just because some children die in their car seats in accidents doesn't mean car seats are "dangerous".

As far as the "debate" about vaccines, it's kind of like the "debate" about evolution: the only people debating it aren't scientists.

Fri, 2010-02-05 13:06

I have a friend who's spacing out the vaccines out of fear for autism, and it's like a part-time job for her. I had considered going this route, out of my general distrust of the medical profession, but the stats really point to vaccines being safe and having been safe for a while. My hippy friends thought I was nuts, though. "You had a home birth but you're vaccinating?" Yes, I guess I broke the crazy-person mold there!

Fri, 2010-02-05 13:04

There is one thing that always gets stuck in my head about this whole debate. People criticize and tell parents how their child is going to get sick or develop autism blah blah blah because they vaccinated.

But look at it from a different perspective.

Those who DO vaccinate are protecting the other, non-vaccinated kids from a whole host of communicable diseases.

Because the vaccinated children aren't passing around these illnesses... the non-vaccinated children are more likely to stay healthy.

So the next time I hear a parent criticized for vaccinating (even in the light of this current development).... I'm going to want to say to that parent: you can thank these parents for keeping your non-vaccinated kids healthy.

I'm just sayin....

Fri, 2010-02-05 11:43

I'm so glad y'all are talking about this subject. I think a lot of moms have been scared away from vaccinating for no good reason, and now some of these diseases are making a comeback. I am pro-vaccine because I understand math and science, but it seems that I find myself around a lot of people who make free to try to scare me about vaccines. When my son was 3 months old, a woman came to a dinner party and would NOT shut up about how horrible and dangerous vaccines were. She cited one case where a family with egg allergies went ahead and vaccinated a 6 week old, who later died (egg allergy is one of the few medical reasons not to get vaccinations). From her one anecdote, she made free to blame vaccines for SIDS, autism, mental retardation, and I can't recall what all. I reminded her that we had a three month old sleeping upstairs who was doing great with normal vaccines. She was all, "You're one of the lucky ones." As though most kids up and die. Really.

Fri, 2010-02-05 09:09